164 Comments

1. 

   duncan. on October 25, 2007 at 11:05 am

   Bull Shit! Richard was making it up while fixating on Dominic’s “gear”. Thank you for noting that Sir.

2. 

   Ben Lahey is Abbie Hoffman on October 26, 2007 at 6:01 am

   What a pity such noble names to drop..

   If only they knew.

   & thus, folk’s i think we have proven my point-( finally )about a few of the folks at the fish forum, not only is Wesley Kimler a FRAUD, he is an admitted FASCIST!!! & has not one ounce of tact- & that goes for you too Marc-.

   Fascists are typically paranoid, they will post arguments if anyone so much as question- the wisdom of the fleas on their rumps- ( as Mr Kimler does….HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ! This is the truth & all should be ( & are ) suspicious,( or are better off ignoring you, in the periphery) oh to find myself shredding away at countless nooses you have thrown on people, men & women who had no for-warning of your lack of integrity & reputation- ( personal -that which you use to trample on our world with- ). Abusing them, hushing them up & throwing them away. PEOPLE! & usually, for nothing or without a single ounce of respectability-.
   & i am with the ever increasing flock- that is better off ignoring you- .It’s so damned hard when people go to comment at a blog & the Shark Statsi comes around.
   You are a monopoly-.
   & with all you whine about- you are your own- enemy-.
   Really, it’s the amazing truth. Beautious-.
   & yes, be careful-.
   All anyone has to do is think & READ about it. Experience- such superfluous know it all, self serving dogma- for all it’s cramped & nihilistic absence of consciousness.

   What you did to Conger & many free thinking individuals, with insight & an opinion- says more about you- than anything..Individuals who – had an ounce of faith in what you say you are trying to accomplish-.

   Marcuse is your wet dream, he is MY reality- .

   & oh i could throw insults, but it’s needless- I know what you do not- that people have brains- lives- existences that rise beyond your comprehension & small mindedness & lack of self control.

   Still have not told us the value of the empty beer bottles.
   ?
   Or who the nameless artists are- please do, there is value in ascertaining the meaning of works in a show & why they are together.
   The hard to see photo images on your walls with tacks- please do, tell us what that is about.
   More power to you if you could even honor the meaning of your own shows with the depth of your ( i’ll be fair as there have been moments) at times- supposed-social, political & artistic prowess-.

   & who & what were these shows about??????????????? Still have not answered the question-????? Is it top secret in the stasi safe?

   & this crazy Kasso blog?? What kind of artist do you call Mr Beckman??What aesthetic relationship does he have to your own aesthetics?

   & who ever puts up with condescension & abuse, on you & or others-shame on you.

   Take a few cues from Kerouac-( & so help me if you correct Kerouac- or put him down or claim he was your brother at birth i won’t be the only one to vomit)

   ” 1. Scribbled secret notebooks, and wild typewritten pages, for yr own joy 2. Submissive to everything, open, listening 3. Try never get drunk outside your own house 4. Be in love with your life 5. Something that you feel will find its own form 6. Be crazy dumbsaint of the mind 7. Blow as deep as you want to blow 8. Write what you want bottomless from bottom of the mind 9. The unspeakable visions of the individual 10. No time for poetry but exactly what is 11. Visionary tics shivering in the chest 12. In tranced fixation dreaming upon object before you 13. Remove literary, grammatical and syntactical inhibition 14. Like Proust be an old teahead of time 15. Telling the true story of the world in interior monolog 16. The jewel center of interest is the eye within the eye 17. Write in recollection and amazement for yrself 18. Work from pithy middle eye out, swimming in language sea 19. Accept loss forever 20. Believe in the holy contour of life 21. Struggle to sketch the flow that already exists intact in mind 22. Don’t think of words when you stop but to see picture better 23. Keep track of every day the date emblazoned in yr morning 24. No fear or shame in the dignity of yr experience, language & knowledge 25. Write for the world to read and see yr exact pictures of it 26. Bookmovie is the movie in words, the visual American form 27. In praise of Character in the Bleak inhuman Loneliness 28. Composing wild, undisciplined, pure, coming in from under, crazier the better 29. You’re a Genius all the time 30. Writer-Director of Earthly movies Sponsored & Angeled in Heaven ”

   & yes calif is on fire, buy those damned energy efficient bulbs already.

   &-
   Auang San Suu Kyi.
   Here is a link where one may sign a petition in a global campaign to free her-.
   http://www.actionburma.com/

3. 

   TheShark on October 26, 2007 at 9:27 am

   Snufalufagus aka Ben Lahey ……..its over.

   -though I am glad you wrote back once more to yet again illustrate the unfortunate ‘leveling’ that can occur in cyber space, allowing an OLD TOWN ART FAIR LEVEL ARTIST AT BEST- with zero chops or knowledge or talent about painting, or about art (-you mention Kienholz previously -whom you are only aware of because of me,)..to distract a group of people from a serious conversation to deal with your massive ego that has no basis in reality.

   This is why we don’t put up everything on sharkforum…

   ..because of people like you Snuffy – no studying of art, zero knowledge or skill, -but with the audacity and amazing ego (and this is coming from The Shark, an egomaniac of epic proportion -but paling in comparison to your famous for nothing self) writing Damien Hirst letters (of course you don’t know much about Mr Hirst other than that he’s famous)..writing him letters suggesting he have you direct him in his next project which, you have imagined up (half baked blather) for him……

   we were having a conversation about the MCA -Sympathy For The Devil before you showed up with this insipid, idiotic, ego trip of yours, lacking anything of substance.

   Why dont you get over the grandiose notions Ms French Fry -and do go to Columbia or SAIC for a semester or two and learn something about art?

   …after which perhaps if you really work at it, you can get a painting accepted at a second or third tier gallery here in a group show.

   I would say that if this were to happen,be sure to send Damien Hirst an announcement card, but knowing you, I’m sure the card is already in the mail.

4. 

   John on October 26, 2007 at 9:27 am

   Ouch…my head hurts. Amy, please stop.

5. 

   Richard on October 26, 2007 at 12:49 pm

   Wait, what? Ben=Abbie Hoffman=Snufalufagus….what is going on?

6. 

   duncan. on October 26, 2007 at 1:04 pm

   Is that true? Or are we just making assumptions and now we have unfairly pulled Snufalufagus into this?

7. 

   Steve on October 26, 2007 at 1:16 pm

   Wow. She’s hot. Hi Amy!

8. 

   TheShark on October 26, 2007 at 1:24 pm

   Duncan, Dave …….it is 100% a fact that it is her- Duncan give me a ring if you have any doubts, I will quickly dispel them for you.

   kind of ruins the whole Ben Lahey shtick-

   Steve -I’d watch the ‘she’s hot’ comments- a word to the wise- with this particular person, you’re a word or two away from an accusation of sexual harrassment-

9. 

   Steve on October 26, 2007 at 1:38 pm

   If not castration, judging by her posts.

   Shame on me.

10. 

    pedro velez on October 26, 2007 at 4:06 pm

    I agree with Klein’s arguments a bit…I did hear Dominic’s interview here just to see his side but found his anecdotes boring and well rehearsed…I wish BAS could have confronted him instead of sucking up to him.

    Now, one big problem you guys have in Chicago is your institutional curators, the same of always…and some of the examples about how to make it in Chi and in the international market…and who made it has been the same arguments since I lived there…which goes to prove that nothing has changed much.

    Now, I saw the MCA rock show and it is a poser’s show, total poser rock for white suburban boys, that’s a fact. I’m sure is going to be a hit amongst tourist, it has a ton of nostalgia, plus the cliched title….that doesn’t mean it is a good show…and it is obvious why they decided to snob Chicago artist and their HUGE relationship with music from the sene. Its impossible to defend the lack of Chi based artist, simply irresponsible and ridiculous. The MCA can’t justify it, neither can Dominic, nether can any Chi artist. If you try to justify it then you ae doing Chicago harm.

    I believe its time you guys take a stand, just as artists do in other scenes. I believe this is a pivotal moment in Chicago, you already lost your position in the art market, you got no important art fairs, you have close to 0 new writers or critics, you got no one in the biennials…what’s left…

    It’s time to rebuild. This show and controversy is just a sign that you have hit the bottom…

    and that could be a great thing.

    or just ask around what do your curators say about Chi artist…the answer is simple, the either say you guys are a hoot and other times they just stay shut. Its a hard truth to swallow but it is a sad fact.

11. 

    Paul Klein on October 26, 2007 at 4:18 pm

    I need to echo what Pedro is saying.

    Here was an opportunity for a constructive discussion about the role of the MCA in Chicago – blown by those threatened by Kimler’s large effort to generate constructive change to benefit the art and artists here. I hate how right Tony Fitzpatrick is when he says “Chicago has the art scene it deserves.”

    As long as we continue this sniveling bickering we effectively refuse to claim the credit, respect or recognition we could deserve.

    The people at Bad at Sports don’t make a penny operating their website. Neither does Sharkforum. But they are on the forefront of those trying to better the scene for all of us. They are trying to improve our lot. I don’t understand the need to mess that up. Why not work to make the situation better – or just go away? Too many artists here don’t seem to care, and when given the opportunity to affect change too often choose to do something negative.

    All this sniping holds down the talent that exists in Chicago. It’s no wonder that so many of the best artists choose to not get involved. To be involved stands to reduce them to the pettiness we’ve witnessed in too many of the preceding posts.

    Sure Kimler’s an easy target, but by aiming at him we hurt ourselves.

    When the infantile stupidity stops Chicago will begin to get the recognition it will deserve, but for now namby-pamby rules the day and namby-pamby is how we are perceived in the artworld at large.

    A sad state of affairs of our own making.

12. 

    TheShark on October 26, 2007 at 5:21 pm

    Pedro, Paul -thank you. Of course I am going to defend myself against the usual confederacy of dunces that …like Ben Lahey/ Snuf -the MCA exhibition is nothing to them or, to her, because the work isn’t of the caliber that allows for the possiblity of feeling overlooked..

    In truth this ‘Ben Lahey’ aka Snufalufagus bullshit -that is all about this really crappy painter with a stunning sense of unearned entitlement, with her nose out of joint because we declined to publish her silly ass blather on sharkforum….. really makes me mad.

    I attempted to make this a point by point discussion on why the rock and roll show at the MCA was a major slap in the face to artists here , and a major disappointment; a curatorially, lazy exhibition -all about opportunities elsewhere for Mr. Molon, having little to do with any kind of serious critical thought on the subject. Instead that has been partially subverted by this idiot whose work DOES NOT MERIT DISCOURSE.

    Pedro -Ive read other things you have said about this show -you are dead on. Same with you Paul. We dont always see eye to eye -but we do on this one.

    Dominic’s explanations here are weak. Dominic..start writing your own canon and earn our support. You do the consensus crowd kowtow…..expect to be attacked. -BIG TIME.

13. 

    TheShark on October 26, 2007 at 6:06 pm

    and btw Paul, as for my being a big target, maybe its some not very bright people’s perception of who they think I am that you are actually referring to. For in truth, if you actually read this junk, its almost always way off target. Stupid people with their retarded, distorted and petty, perceptions of a pretty smart fish.

    It is a shame, the points I continually (and thanklessly) try to make, addressing issues that effect us all -though I am definitely not philanthropic by nature…but rather through my own Randian sense of selfishness as a virtue, bring up for my own healthy self interest, might very well be commensurate with the healthy self interest of most artists here…what, a concept.

14. 

    TheShark on October 26, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    sheeeeeesh!

15. 

    Paul Klein on October 26, 2007 at 8:17 pm

    I agree Wesley. They aim at you – thus you are a target (and you are easy to aim at because you are big and verbally visible), and they miss their mark invariably, but in the effort of going after you they deflect a worthy discussion and further screw themselves and us.

16. 

    TheShark on October 26, 2007 at 11:57 pm

    One point of hilarity thats just too rich not to point out…ms Snufalupagus invokes Jack Kerouac into her rant as if claiming some kind of ownership over his ‘legacy’…

    …throughout the course of this thread I have periodically asked Ben Lahey/French Fry if she knows who sharkpack member David Amram is…….you know, the guy who was perhaps Kerouacs closest friend and, collaborator…..

    what, now that you know how famous, ‘who’ David is, I’m sure you’ll be writing him next -don’t worry Amy -we’ll warn him.

    also fyi ms Snufalupagus, I grew up in north beach/chinatown in San Francisco -lived in the same dusty, derelict transient hotels Kerouac frequented, haunted the same dives and dark corners of upper chinatown on Stockton street kerouac wrote poetry about, drank coffee at the Cafe Trieste and Savoy Tivoli on upper Grant Street, frequented Yee Jeun for tomato beef chow mein, and the noodle house Sam Wo with the infamous beatnik waiter/terrorist food server Henry Edsel Ford 3 and used City Lights Book Store as my own personal library -as we all did…..for years

    so perhaps you should kind of drop the whole Kerouac and ‘you’ thing as ill-advised at best.

17. 

    TheShark on October 27, 2007 at 9:45 am

    I went back and read Pedro Velez’s comments above…….everyone should hear what he has to say.

    It is the bottom looming up large with Sympathy For The Devil and the way the HUGE relationship between the music and visual arts scene here in Chicago, was treated.

    You, as rational human beings and as artists, should not stand for it.

18. 

    pedro velez on October 27, 2007 at 10:44 am

    Not only that Wes…whenthe arts in an island from the Caribbean are thriving and artists can somehow sell more work and have more opportunities outside of our region, more than in Chicago?????…it says a lot about the priorities of your institutions and your collectors, etc…..the Ren is even supporting Allora and Calzadilla…who don’t even live here but are considered Puertoricans because they come down once every year. You see how double standards are a bitch?

    Miami, Puerto Rico, LA, Milwaukee, even Dallas now are doing better than what was considered the second market once. At least they don’t complain in Milwaukee and Minneapolis has those healthy grants to keep artist in the city. The Walker has managed to get the natives in the Whitney and other big international shows.

    Its like that song, “what have you done for me lately”…well…the 12 x 12 closet space at MCA doesn’t cut it.

    I believe in public actions, making noise in the press…not the local press, that doesn’t wok anymore…if you go out of the borderds they’ll have to listen…

    so far, they have the upper hand, they have colonized the scene, and the scene just seems to love get beaten up, like the abused woman syndrome. If these conversations stay here, in web forums, they win.

    They have in the past.

    If these curators don’t go out to see shows or studios, in such a small city!!!!!give me a fucking break.

    you need to go to the sourse, the bosses, the board members and the press…do not complain to Dominic, hes just a worker, he need to follow instructions to pay the rent.

19. 

    TheShark on October 27, 2007 at 6:32 pm

    well Pedro, I mostly agree with you -though being familiar with the MCA hierarchy and culture, and know several of their more powerful board members, I would suggest that what is really happening is an atmosphere of complacency even torpor with little aesthetic direction or vision. The marketing dept at the MCA is too powerful while at the same time, not being aesthetically or, culturally very bright.

    This allows for small vision shows like Sympathy which really serves two masters -that of drawing a crowd, and Molons own personal career ambitions….and don’t kid yourself Pedro…Dominic Molon could have insisted on addressing the scene here -his not doing so was his own decision.

    The truth is, this exhibition is indeed akin to a teenage suburban white boys bedroom, and just about as thought out… The big issues of rock and art/rock and culture/ rock and art and culture, were never even considered. This much, is self evident.

20. 

    pedro velez on October 27, 2007 at 7:10 pm

    I’m not sure Dominic could have had an input to include the scene in this show…first because he doesn’t know it, and second, have you or anybody ever seen him at a rock show? I never did…

    Pedro Bell he got from Elms show, that’s obvious…

21. 

    pedro velez on October 27, 2007 at 7:15 pm

    ohhh, and the rock experiece you have to live it live, you don’t get the experience by looking at fucking posters or record covers…

    a poser curating a rock show is insulting and the artists that knowing Molon is a poser agreed to do it, shame on them.

22. 

    TheShark on October 27, 2007 at 7:56 pm

    don’t disagree with much of what you say -except this: if Molon had actually done his job..done actual research rather than making mostly cliched choices ( I mentioned to one documentary filmmaker who has worked in the music world the tired Sonic Youth connection of this show -she just rolled her eyes-)..no one at the MCA would have stopped him from including it…….they just aren’t that hands on Pedro

    but he did zero research -I know this because I offered to introduce him to Joe Shanahan months AFTER! the show was in the can…..how ironic he has this publicity photo taken of himself at Metro….its fucked up to say the least…. -and you are correct my friend, I have seen many, many great shows at Metro -too numerous to mention -and no, I have never seen Molon at any of them.

    Obviously he stumbled on to Pedro Bell…..and isnt that the point? Good, thorough curators -don’t just ‘luck’ into things, THEY DO THE RESEARCH! Which, is why I have accused Mr. Molon of curatorial malpractice…….

    One of Molons most egregious transgressions was how he covered his ass by saying there was nothing here he felt compelled to include…..HE NEVER LOOKED! And now, he trashes artists here to cover for his lack of professionalism -and the real agenda of the show -to use consensus correct artists to enable his job search opportunities in better markets…its all very thin and easy to see through…like cellophane.

23. 

    pedro velez on October 28, 2007 at 1:03 am

    In the BAS interview he agrees that there’s no need to research Chi because the show is not about Chi…but how come Chi is the departing point and source????Because it makes the show legit…yes, the city and its history makes the show legit…he knows it.

    with Detroit and the Midwest, he choose the cliched Kelly and Monsters collective…but he doesn’t include the Kelly video, that black and white trashy ode to guitar players…forgot the title of it, because its too dirty is my best guess.

    And yet, another curator with another tired Sonic Youth reference, which looked better and sounded better at the Brooklyn show from the 80’s at the New Museum in NY..there it was mixed with grafitti art and all in between and it worked just fine.

    I think the inclusion of Rirkrit is a huge mistake, just as is the Muller piece and the Astro Vivid, who have nothing to do with rock, only the opposite…and even more Lambie, whose piece looked great but Lambie is eurotrash bull, c’mon…this show has Disney written all over, this show is one of those pre packaged hall of fame museums of rock a ‘la VH 1.

    You can’t dismiss Hardcore Stories and Marc Fischer, Ms Hound, Screaming in Music events, Academy Records, Terence Hanunn, Tortoise and its infuence on a young generation of artist all over the globe, Chuck Jones, most of the Law Office events, Artloinz with Siebren Veersteg, Matt Hanner and these are the youngest, not so underground…Crosshair posters and packaging…How could you not touch up on fucking Ministry and the Albiny legacy…even the artist that made the cast for Billy Corgan’s instruments, crafty but amazing, Rob ad Zena Zakowski..you know, there thousands of leads to follow…

    and even thought I like Pedro Bell…that’s not really rock.

    what about the historical bonfire of disco at Comiskey, great yuxtaposition of artwork, sports and protest….that’s Chicago right there.

    In a city where sportsmen and musicians are treated like royalty…you are going to tell me you didn’t have enough time to do research!!!!!

    you are going to tell me you can’t just walk up to the empty bootle and pay 5 bucks for a show!!!!

24. 

    Mark Staff Brandl on October 28, 2007 at 6:25 am

    Hey, great comments Pedro. My compliments.

25. 

    TheShark on October 28, 2007 at 9:32 am

    Yep!..and maybe the beginning of a strategy session…..how do we bring enough pressure to bear to effect change.

    What can Chicago’s role be in an overheated, stupid, consensoriat led art world that clearly is about to crash and burn, be?

    Is Pedro right about the ineffective nature of the blogs -or can an ezines like sharkforum and BAS begin to supplant the traditional art rags?

    How can we get curators like Molon to be original in their thinking, not merely parroting the same old shite….remember, we have FAILED PAINTERS like Francesco Bonami who’s one art world credt was being an editor at Flash (art whore) Magazine..thinking they are more important than artists…..how did this happen? How can we put a sudden abrupt end to this?

    -the list is long, I have my kid here wanting attention…..more later-

26. 

    pedro velez on October 28, 2007 at 11:43 am

    blogs are important and alter press also…it keeps the pressure…but the money is in the legit mags…the ads…you boycott those mags or you make the big mags come to Chi to find out what’s the problem with the curators and institutions…you make a great press release and caught their interest…this is not an issue Snodgras or the Yood can talk about, it has to be an outisder…

27. 

    TheShark on October 28, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    well I agree with you somewhat -though I want to point out to you artnet is quickly becoming more important than the mags -due in part to its viral quality……still what you say about ads is right.

    Snodgrass is a consensus club bureaucrat….and Yood unfortunately has been far too in love with the sound of his own voice for years (aside from being perhaps the most talented fence sitter in the art world here…)..I expect nothing from either of these two. As I have often pointed out, Chicago receives the same amount of coverage from the international magazines Boise Idaho does…..

    I do think we can employ the internet here at a level yet to be seen anywhere in terms of the art world -precisely because we have problems here that require it.

28. 

    TheShark on October 28, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    the problem with the ad situation… is with a few exceptions (Tony Fitz- occaisonally me,) most of the ads are taken out by art dealers…….its always interesting to talk to a real art dealer from either coast to realize we dont have any of those here – Richard Gray being perhaps the one exception……

    how would we ever get this group of dilettantes to be on the same page, to actually be smart about something?…sheeeeeesh!

    -I think we are going to have to go it alone on this one-

29. 

    pedro velez on October 28, 2007 at 5:12 pm

    that’s the great thing about hitting bottom, the only way to go is up, that’s when complacent artist, scared artist, politically correct artists, quiet artists will talk and take matters in their own hands…

    and when I talked about mags, I consider web based publication mags, of course….

    Artnet has changed a lot for the better in tha past two years, more critical….

30. 

    Marc Fischer on October 28, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    I finally saw this show yesterday. I will go back to spend more time with a few of the pieces and to see more of the videos but overall I found very little to like.

    The inclusion of so many bloated and inneffectual works that gobble up massive amounts of space, while contributing a minimum of ideas, is truly sad. Why was Douglas Gordon’s extremely weak video piece given a room that was equivalent to about 1/8th of the exhibition? Jeezus. Lux Interior should have been in Chicago rubbing the faces of every visitor into the crotch of his vinyl pants for the entire length of the exhibition for the amount of space that piece sucked up. Rirkrit Tiravanija’s Untitled 1996 (Rehearsal Studio No. 6 Silent Version) was weak in 1998 when the MCA last showed it and did not need a reprisal. Does anyone even use those awful sounding plastic electronic drums that are included in the piece? Not in my years of going to rock shows. The b/w screen printed-looking works in the atrium were instantly forgettable. The vague and visually slight Jim Lambie work swallowed another sizable room. The weak art gesture of making a minute long repeating clip of the camera on a crane shot from the Godard’s “Sympathy for the Devil” sucked up yet another room on the second floor that could have been given over to something with more than half of an idea.

    Some good choices are badly represented and in some cases, not effectively displayed. Dan Graham is hidden away. The selection of ephemera from Throbbing Gristle is not nearly as strong as it could have been. The compelling TG publication contents in the vitrines should have been made into a free or cheap booklet that visitors could take away. It’s too much to try to read in an exhibition. The exhibition playlist is a nice idea but where are the audio devices to listen to it? With all of the band name-checking in the wall texts, not being able to hear the stuff that is referenced (and which one is presumably expected to already be familiar with) is pretty poor form. The band Big Black is name checked on a wall text but nowhere to be seen in the show (despite the inclusion of Savage Pencil elsewhere – who did the cover art for BB’s Headache EP). Overlooking the relationship between the art and packaging in Big Black’s aesthetic was a missed opportunity that could have wiggled a little more of Chicago into the fold. Tony Oursler’s interview videos in the lobby seem like a promising program – though it’s very hard to hear them or focus on them with all the activity happening in the space.

    The show (and the MCA in general) seems to be too concerned about a High Art/Low Art split that should have been done away with ages ago. It seems miraculous that Pedro Bell and Savage Pencil weren’t left out for that reason. I think they are the only exceptions. The museum shop is happy to peddle numerous books about rock flyer art and the artists who crafted these visuals, but the show itself gives these art and music mergers very little play.

    Where were: Gary Panter, The Residents, Devo (sorry a video alone doesn’t cut it), Yokoo Tadanori, Eye from the Boredoms, Alan Vega, Pete Frame, Art Chantry, Peter Hujar, Giorno Poetry Systems and David Wojnarowicz? John Oswald’s album cover collages are far stronger than Christian Marclay’s but Oswald isn’t a gallery and museum artist. What about Gee Vaucher, who did all the packaging and graphics for Crass? What about the Midwestern publishing histories of Forced Exposure and Just Flesh – or Punk Planet, which constantly merged art with rock?

    Why wasn’t someone like H.R. Giger – who has worked with numerous bands – included? Too low brow? His art that was used for the Dead Kennedy’s “Frankenchrist” album touched off an important censorship battle that paralleled the culture wars of the 80’s and would have been a thoughtful inclusion. I wouldn’t have minded seeing the art used for Celtic Frost’s “To Mega Therion” either, but metal always gets shafted in shows like this.

    Is there a single African-American artist in the show beside Pedro Bell? I mean, Black people pretty much only INVENTED ROCK ‘N ROLL.

    Also, with so many artist groups working today, and with the rise and development of so many collaborative practices perfectly paralleling the years that the exhibition covers, I couldn’t help but notice how little collaborative work was included. Where are all of the groups? Couldn’t someone have been invited to explore the relationship between artists working in groups and musicians working in bands?

    Compelling art, much like the most compelling rock music, frequently comes from the margins. This show could have been a fantastic opportunity to look beyond the world of gallery-represented and museum-collected artists to find much more vital work. The inclusion of Pedro Bell and Savage Pencil is a nice victory for the marginal and often unfairly excluded, but that’s about where it ends. There is more thinking, humor, daring and rock spirit in those Pedro Bell pieces than about 50% of the rest of the show.

31. 

    pedro velez on October 28, 2007 at 6:44 pm

    thank you Marc..

32. 

    TheShark on October 28, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    Is there a single African-American artist in the show beside Pedro Bell? I mean, Black people pretty much only INVENTED ROCK ‘N ROLL.

    ya think?……its completely outrageous.and so much of that history happened HERE!

33. 

    pedro velez on October 28, 2007 at 7:18 pm

    i met one designer for Misfits and Danzig flyers in Florida a loooong time ago, he had one of those Giger’s dinner tables, it was huge.

34. 

    TheShark on October 28, 2007 at 7:24 pm

    a more serious and tough question would be given Molon’s white suburban sensibilties, was Pedro Bell in fact included so that they could claim to have an African American artist in the show…

    I would not be suprised if this was not the case and wouldnt that be something? perhaps the best stuff in the show, included as some form of quota-

    Big Black played at the Big City exhibition at Peter Millers -put together by Matt Straub, including The Shark that ushered in the 80’s art scene here in Chicago- it was a massive block party followed by many exhibitions at Peters that involved the east village artists including of course David Wojnarowicz/ grouped with people from here….

35. 

    pedro velez on October 29, 2007 at 10:10 am

    did I leave Chuck Jones out of the Chi list?

    I remember a similar situation, (in relationship to Marc’s comments), years ago at the Ren when Simparch did a project with Kevin Drumm,I wrote a negative review of it because I felt that for a project that was about sound and shelter, architecture and social politics, it was instaled in an elitist institution… and the soundtrack was not going to be accessible to poular culture, neither the piece…

    anyways,I agree with Marc that the MCA, like the Ren then, were trying to mix up high and low culture…or what they believe low culture is, or street wise…or maybe the undergound?

36. 

    TheShark on October 29, 2007 at 10:48 am

    what Sympathy For The Devil does accomplish, is to provide us with a template with which to measure their (the MCA’s -or Molons version of of it -to be fair to others-) methodology, philosophy/aesthetics/ethics/politics (or lack there of)..their basic professionalism, rigor -how they take on a project…how Molon perceives his duties as curator……in at least this particular instance I would grade the entire performance as shoddy, trendy, self serving and insipid at best-

    it really does provide a window…

37. 

    TheShark on October 29, 2007 at 11:09 am

    as for the ‘Ren’…..how can you take a space seriously that has been so politicized with consensus correct, UIC power mongering?

    Suzanne Ghez is a perfectly nice woman with no art education…along comes Judith Kirshner,….now where is that great book or even intelligible aesthetic treatise that gives her credibility?..and between the two of them you get the perfect storm of consensoriat aesthetics, and lack of real depth of knowledge…which is why we get those Larry Poons circa 1962 knockoff paintings -(Ledgerwood) being touted as cutting edge…or a later day fake minimalist like Geber (fraud)…..a deadly mixture of stupidity and, ambition, with a bland, middle class sensibility thrown in to make the whole thing ‘collectible’…bland, innocuous, wall dressing with academically conferred ‘importance’, that in the reality of the actual low skilled derivative fluff itself, does not exist.

    the Ren has on occaison imported good exhibitions here -how they have used that prestige to further the ambitions of a few here -showing academic junk like I mention above has greatly contributed to the retarded art scene we are now confronted with here in Chicago.

    in otherwords, I think the ‘Ren’ sucks.

38. 

    Mark Staff Brandl on October 29, 2007 at 2:14 pm

    Very clear and sharp-sighted discussion/comment Marc F!

    And all of Pedro’s comments are razor-sharp. “Poseur”…love that. I have a new title for a Consensus show: “ComPoseurs” combining “composure” with the latin “com”=with, “Poseurs”.

    I, of course, think that many (but not all and not even most) internet sites are important. I have discused it with important editors and publishers of art mags. Many of whom are astounded at the WWW’s importance, many of whom are open that they think it is replacing them and often want to discuss with me why people like me and John Perrault and others, who could get published much more often in the glossies (which are paid), yet want to do blogs (which are mostly unpaid as well). I think the reason’s are obvious and growing. SF may have no “tact,” but is making a big difference. BAS has a certain modicum of tact, but is still making a difference, despite their tact.

    More people regularly read (not just hits) SF than read most art mags just this side of Art in America (the biggest seller of art mags). More than read Artforum, but then as an important contributor to Artforum said, “it is the journal of record because everybody wants in it, but people only look AT it, nobody reads it.”

    And Wesley, “a deadly mixture of stupidity and ambition” — a wonderful phrase. Probably the deadliest mixture.

39. 

    Marc Fischer on October 29, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    I feel ashamed that it took a friend’s email to remind me of the astounding omission of the Chicago-based group Lucky Pierre and their current/recent performance “Rock & Roll: Impatience”.

    This incredibly smart, critical, and very fucking funny performance should have happened every day of the exhibit until the four members of the group collapsed and choked on their own [pink cloth] vomit.

    If I had to pick one thing from Chicago that absolutely should have been included and for whatever reason was not, my vote would go to this group and that piece.

    In case you need to know more: http://www.luckypierre.org/

40. 

    Marc Fischer on October 29, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    Another big omission: GENERAL IDEA!

    This group always had rock n roll on the mind. The Punk issue of General Idea’s FILE ‘megazine’ was an unbelievable thing, and that it came from and was fully produced and designed by artists, and not music critics, is really important.

41. 

    TheShark on October 29, 2007 at 3:58 pm

    Marc, the whole thing is an astounding omission of which we are filling in the blanks, piece by piece…..brazen, flippant and arrogant, rather than scholarly, respectful, knowledgable-

    I think this is a watershed type event for the MCA….I think people are disgusted and fed up.

    Make no mistake about it, this show is about art world politics -not, rock music and art-

42. 

    pedro velez on October 29, 2007 at 6:35 pm

    I was going thru the web site of the mCA and you can download itunes and purchase songs from the playlist of the show…that’s so rock…what happen with illegal downloading? sex, violence, drugs?

43. 

    pedro velez on October 29, 2007 at 9:20 pm

    fuck! what about Wesley Willis????is he still around?

44. 

    David Roth on October 29, 2007 at 9:46 pm

    Wesley Willis, alas, has been dead for a few years. I believe it was leukemia.

45. 

    Richard on October 29, 2007 at 10:02 pm

    Died in August of 2003.

46. 

    jessica cochran on October 30, 2007 at 8:37 am

    fyi… there will be a show of drawings by wesley willis up at dominican university, jan 23 – feb 29… (curated by a student for his honors project)

47. 

    TheShark on October 30, 2007 at 9:47 am

    The Shark glides into view at The Sharkpit- a PBS interview/video piece shooting tmw concerning the rock show….more as it unfolds

    Madeleine Grynsztejn Named
    New MCA Chicago Director

    This can only be seen as an improvement -we jusst need to be sure that the powers that be here do not get their hooks into her -and they will try to do just that.

    Not that Madeleine is a weak minded sociopath like mr curator (James Rondeau) -but it is important to note, ‘James’ wasnt in Chicago 6 months before he was sighted at the lap pool with his his new workout pal one Judith Kirshner……do any of you find this shocking?

48. 

    TheShark on October 30, 2007 at 10:47 am

    lap pool:

    -I’m sure they have their reasons -Judith probably needs to unwind from hubby’s plagarism scandal (guilty as charged!)….and James obviously needs to work off a few ponds of flab -sorry James theres nothing swimming can do for that fat head perched on your shoulders ( adjacent to that ‘boy on the go’ euro satchel, all consensoriats in ‘the know’ carry)

49. 

    pedro velez on October 30, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    Jessica could you send me a link to the Willis event?

50. 

    pedro velez on October 31, 2007 at 11:56 am

    just fro the record, 7/3, Tim Fleming, used to give his space to the trashcore latino kids for them to do rock shows in Pilsen.