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	<title>Comments on: Episode 82: David Robbins</title>
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	<description>Contemporay art talk without the ego</description>
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		<title>By: links for: Relational Aesthetics / DIY / Tactical Media / Social Practice &#8211; discussion &#171; up the hill &#38; through the woods</title>
		<link>http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/comment-page-1/#comment-86884</link>
		<dc:creator>links for: Relational Aesthetics / DIY / Tactical Media / Social Practice &#8211; discussion &#171; up the hill &#38; through the woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://badatsports.com/blog/?p=104#comment-86884</guid>
		<description>[...] bad at sports http://badatsports.com/2009/episode-208-the-stockyard-institute-and-the-cafeteria-sessions/ http://badatsports.com/2009/episode-195-incubate/ http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] bad at sports <a href="http://badatsports.com/2009/episode-208-the-stockyard-institute-and-the-cafeteria-sessions/" rel="nofollow">http://badatsports.com/2009/episode-208-the-stockyard-institute-and-the-cafeteria-sessions/</a> <a href="http://badatsports.com/2009/episode-195-incubate/" rel="nofollow">http://badatsports.com/2009/episode-195-incubate/</a> <a href="http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/" rel="nofollow">http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Staff Brandl</title>
		<link>http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/comment-page-1/#comment-15684</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Staff Brandl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 18:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://badatsports.com/blog/?p=104#comment-15684</guid>
		<description>Yeah, you should! I warned you that it would be long (but you are right it is too long), but it is very very insightful, or in German (since I can&#039;t resist due to your name), Es ist SEHR aufschlussreich. Also, wach auf! Dass ist SEHR wichtig! (I&#039;m very sorry. Or --- Es tut mir SEHR leid. I can&#039;t stoppppppp.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, you should! I warned you that it would be long (but you are right it is too long), but it is very very insightful, or in German (since I can&#8217;t resist due to your name), Es ist SEHR aufschlussreich. Also, wach auf! Dass ist SEHR wichtig! (I&#8217;m very sorry. Or &#8212; Es tut mir SEHR leid. I can&#8217;t stoppppppp.)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: katie sehr</title>
		<link>http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/comment-page-1/#comment-15119</link>
		<dc:creator>katie sehr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 04:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://badatsports.com/blog/?p=104#comment-15119</guid>
		<description>im sorry. random outburst directed towards nobody in particular. 
i have to start printing these out to read them.

k</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>im sorry. random outburst directed towards nobody in particular.<br />
i have to start printing these out to read them.</p>
<p>k</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: katie sehr</title>
		<link>http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/comment-page-1/#comment-15109</link>
		<dc:creator>katie sehr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 03:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://badatsports.com/blog/?p=104#comment-15109</guid>
		<description>zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....................go play!

k</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..go play!</p>
<p>k</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Staff Brandl</title>
		<link>http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/comment-page-1/#comment-14357</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Staff Brandl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://badatsports.com/blog/?p=104#comment-14357</guid>
		<description>Mike Kaysen and Brad Farwell --- again two extremely well-thought-out and stimulating comments. helped me clarify my own attraction/repulsion to Robbins notions. Are you two both artists? If so, where can I see work on-line? Do you write elsewhere? Contact me through my email at my website sometime please! (www.markstaffbrandl.com/) Oh, yeah, and come see me in my booth at the Artist Project part of the Chicago Art Fair in April if you are going ---- also I&#039;ll be staying at The Shark&#039;s, so you can catch me there. I&#039;d love to meet you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike Kaysen and Brad Farwell &#8212; again two extremely well-thought-out and stimulating comments. helped me clarify my own attraction/repulsion to Robbins notions. Are you two both artists? If so, where can I see work on-line? Do you write elsewhere? Contact me through my email at my website sometime please! (www.markstaffbrandl.com/) Oh, yeah, and come see me in my booth at the Artist Project part of the Chicago Art Fair in April if you are going &#8212;- also I&#8217;ll be staying at The Shark&#8217;s, so you can catch me there. I&#8217;d love to meet you.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Staff Brandl</title>
		<link>http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/comment-page-1/#comment-14355</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Staff Brandl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:03:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://badatsports.com/blog/?p=104#comment-14355</guid>
		<description>Yeah, Maura, I do think Robbins does some good &quot;art&quot; himself and his &quot;independent imagination&quot; is a great notion, but it also worries my that the thought process if carried further logically could lead to an extremely middlebrow &quot;revenge of the Philistines&quot; as the Shark notes. And middlebrow ALWAYS sucks. Here is an extended citation from an important essay by theorist leslie Fiedler, titled &quot;The Middle Against Both Ends.&quot; I can&#039;t find it in internet right now, so maybe I&#039;ll post it to Sharkforum sometime in full, as it deserves wider application and study in the artworld (esp. by those &quot;bogus&quot; pop culture thieves --- I mean &quot;appropriationists&quot;, oops). It is available a wonderful, historically organized collection of essays ed. by David Lodge titled 20th Century Literary Criticism, A Reader (Longman). Fiedler was a prolific writer on a wide range of subjects and an important literary critic/theorist, best known for Love an Death in the American Novel. I had the joy of a short exchange of correspondence with him before his recent death (at the age of about 88). (This essay, has been referred to on internet, yet been radically falsely understood in the places I saw the reference--- it is in fact an all-out attack on &quot;middlebrows,&quot; not a support of them as some seem to think from misreading the title, without having read the piece, seemingly.) I&#039;ll present just a few of its long list of rich insights here (it was written in the 50s, so some terminology is dated).

Fiedler points out that many artists and writers read both Batman and James Joyce, while those who attack the first have also never read the later, and in fact generally promote a cultural education at about the level of Readers&#039; Digest at best. As he states of one book attacking popular culture, which could stand in for most attacks, &quot;it propounds the preposterous theory that the whole of &quot;popular literature&quot; is a conspiracy on the part of the &quot;plutos&quot; to corrupt an innocent American people. Such easy melodrama can only satisfy someone prepared to believe, as Mr. Wagner apparently does, that the young girls of Harlem are being led astray by the double-entendres of blues records! &quot;

&quot;In none of the books on comics I have looked into, and in none of the reports of ladies&#039; clubs, protests of legislators, or statements of moral indignation by pastors, have I come on any real attempt to understand comic books: to define the form, midway between icon and story...&quot;

&quot;The most fascinating and suspicious aspect of the opposition ... is its unanimity .... What they have in common is, I am afraid, the sense that they are all, according to their rights, righteous. And their protests represent only one more example ... of the notorious failure of righteousness in matters involving art. What do the righteous really have against comic books? In some parts of the world, simply the fact that they are American is sufficient, and certain homegrown self-contemnors follow this line even in the United States. But it is really a minor argument, lent a certain temporary importance by passing political exigencies. To declare oneself against &#039;the Americanization of culture&#039; is meaningless unless one is set resolutely against industrialization and mass education.&quot;

More to the point is the attack on mass culture for its betrayal of literacy itself. What should set us on guard in this case is that it is not the fully literate, the intellectuals and serious writers, who lead the attack, but the insecure semiliterate. In America, there is something a little absurd about the indignant delegation from the Parent and Teachers Association (themselves clutching the latest issue of Life) crying out in defence of literature. Asked for suggestions, such critics are likely to propose the Readers&#039; Digest as required reading.... In other countries, corresponding counterparts are not hard to find.&quot;

&quot;About these charges [of violence and son on] that the enlightened censors deplore. First, by and large, they are true. Second, they are also true about the most serious art.... You cannot condemn Superman for the exploitation of violence and praise the existentialist-sadist-shockers of [fine literature such as Paul Bowles in the next breath).&quot;

&quot;Historically, one can make quite a convincing case to prove that our highest and lowest arts come from a common antibourgeois source ... that they challenge the more genteel versions of &#039;good taste&#039;. By more &#039;advanced&#039; consultants, the taboo (against any violence] is advanced further towards absurdity: no bloodsoaked Grimm, no terrifying [fairy tales], no childhood verses about cradles that fall...everywhere the fear of fear is endemic... those who have most ardently desired to end warfare and personal cruelty in the world around them,... are the most frustrated by their persistence, conspire to stamp out violence on the nursery bookshelf [or in superheroes]. This same fear of the instinctual, and the dark, this denial of death and guilt by the enlightened genteel, motivates their distrust of serious literature too. ...In the name of a literature of the middle ground which finds its fictitious vision of a kindly and congenial world attacked from above and below. &quot;

&quot;The failure of the petty-bourgeoisie [as exemplified in professionals such as teachers and middle-class lawyers] to achieve cultural hegemony threatens their dream of a truly classless society;... they see, in the persistence of a high art and a low art on either side their average own....The middlebrow reacts with equal fury to an art that baffles his understanding and to one which refuses to aspire to his level. The fear of the vulgar is the obverse of the fear of excellence, and both are aspects of the fear of difference: symptoms of the drive for conformity on the level of the timid, sentimental, mindless-bodiless genteel.&quot;

Loooongggg, but important here I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, Maura, I do think Robbins does some good &#8220;art&#8221; himself and his &#8220;independent imagination&#8221; is a great notion, but it also worries my that the thought process if carried further logically could lead to an extremely middlebrow &#8220;revenge of the Philistines&#8221; as the Shark notes. And middlebrow ALWAYS sucks. Here is an extended citation from an important essay by theorist leslie Fiedler, titled &#8220;The Middle Against Both Ends.&#8221; I can&#8217;t find it in internet right now, so maybe I&#8217;ll post it to Sharkforum sometime in full, as it deserves wider application and study in the artworld (esp. by those &#8220;bogus&#8221; pop culture thieves &#8212; I mean &#8220;appropriationists&#8221;, oops). It is available a wonderful, historically organized collection of essays ed. by David Lodge titled 20th Century Literary Criticism, A Reader (Longman). Fiedler was a prolific writer on a wide range of subjects and an important literary critic/theorist, best known for Love an Death in the American Novel. I had the joy of a short exchange of correspondence with him before his recent death (at the age of about 88). (This essay, has been referred to on internet, yet been radically falsely understood in the places I saw the reference&#8212; it is in fact an all-out attack on &#8220;middlebrows,&#8221; not a support of them as some seem to think from misreading the title, without having read the piece, seemingly.) I&#8217;ll present just a few of its long list of rich insights here (it was written in the 50s, so some terminology is dated).</p>
<p>Fiedler points out that many artists and writers read both Batman and James Joyce, while those who attack the first have also never read the later, and in fact generally promote a cultural education at about the level of Readers&#8217; Digest at best. As he states of one book attacking popular culture, which could stand in for most attacks, &#8220;it propounds the preposterous theory that the whole of &#8220;popular literature&#8221; is a conspiracy on the part of the &#8220;plutos&#8221; to corrupt an innocent American people. Such easy melodrama can only satisfy someone prepared to believe, as Mr. Wagner apparently does, that the young girls of Harlem are being led astray by the double-entendres of blues records! &#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;In none of the books on comics I have looked into, and in none of the reports of ladies&#8217; clubs, protests of legislators, or statements of moral indignation by pastors, have I come on any real attempt to understand comic books: to define the form, midway between icon and story&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;The most fascinating and suspicious aspect of the opposition &#8230; is its unanimity &#8230;. What they have in common is, I am afraid, the sense that they are all, according to their rights, righteous. And their protests represent only one more example &#8230; of the notorious failure of righteousness in matters involving art. What do the righteous really have against comic books? In some parts of the world, simply the fact that they are American is sufficient, and certain homegrown self-contemnors follow this line even in the United States. But it is really a minor argument, lent a certain temporary importance by passing political exigencies. To declare oneself against &#8216;the Americanization of culture&#8217; is meaningless unless one is set resolutely against industrialization and mass education.&#8221;</p>
<p>More to the point is the attack on mass culture for its betrayal of literacy itself. What should set us on guard in this case is that it is not the fully literate, the intellectuals and serious writers, who lead the attack, but the insecure semiliterate. In America, there is something a little absurd about the indignant delegation from the Parent and Teachers Association (themselves clutching the latest issue of Life) crying out in defence of literature. Asked for suggestions, such critics are likely to propose the Readers&#8217; Digest as required reading&#8230;. In other countries, corresponding counterparts are not hard to find.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;About these charges [of violence and son on] that the enlightened censors deplore. First, by and large, they are true. Second, they are also true about the most serious art&#8230;. You cannot condemn Superman for the exploitation of violence and praise the existentialist-sadist-shockers of [fine literature such as Paul Bowles in the next breath)."</p>
<p>"Historically, one can make quite a convincing case to prove that our highest and lowest arts come from a common antibourgeois source ... that they challenge the more genteel versions of 'good taste'. By more 'advanced' consultants, the taboo (against any violence] is advanced further towards absurdity: no bloodsoaked Grimm, no terrifying [fairy tales], no childhood verses about cradles that fall&#8230;everywhere the fear of fear is endemic&#8230; those who have most ardently desired to end warfare and personal cruelty in the world around them,&#8230; are the most frustrated by their persistence, conspire to stamp out violence on the nursery bookshelf [or in superheroes]. This same fear of the instinctual, and the dark, this denial of death and guilt by the enlightened genteel, motivates their distrust of serious literature too. &#8230;In the name of a literature of the middle ground which finds its fictitious vision of a kindly and congenial world attacked from above and below. &#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;The failure of the petty-bourgeoisie [as exemplified in professionals such as teachers and middle-class lawyers] to achieve cultural hegemony threatens their dream of a truly classless society;&#8230; they see, in the persistence of a high art and a low art on either side their average own&#8230;.The middlebrow reacts with equal fury to an art that baffles his understanding and to one which refuses to aspire to his level. The fear of the vulgar is the obverse of the fear of excellence, and both are aspects of the fear of difference: symptoms of the drive for conformity on the level of the timid, sentimental, mindless-bodiless genteel.&#8221;</p>
<p>Loooongggg, but important here I think.</p>
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		<title>By: The Shark</title>
		<link>http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/comment-page-1/#comment-14186</link>
		<dc:creator>The Shark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://badatsports.com/blog/?p=104#comment-14186</guid>
		<description>-perhaps where you and I Maura might find something to agree upon -is, that much of what was truly profound and definitive about 20th century art has been for the most part jettisoned in the high art world by the consensoriat/institutional art model -in favor of an art world with Duchamp as today&#039;s Adolphie Bouguereau  -buttressed up and sold via some very muddled understanding of certain french philosophers - all accompanied by visually and technically (at least in painting) a for the most part not particularly bold or engaging time.....

Its interesting how in furniture design, in architecture - the basic premises of modernism are being pushed ever further -are forward looking, with results that are tangibly beyond dispute ......go down to River North -the most interesting design you will come across is going to be at Luminare -not in some art gallery......look at some of the buildings being done today..are the Richard Serra&#039;s at Bilbao as successful as the building itself?..

-but you can&#039;t blame this on painting, or sculpture -the simple fact is that the consensoriat is no  smarter when they condescend to acknowledge painting, than when they misconstrue Baudrillard- and unfortunately, they simply have more power -or simply have power in these disciplines and not in either design or architecture.

the footprint of what is institutional is almost certainly about resentment and revenge upon what is talented, what is visual and often what is exceptional, and is perhaps what is really in need of discussion. What is the impact of educational/institutional patronage of high art? What is the impact upon art?......its all quite interesting...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>-perhaps where you and I Maura might find something to agree upon -is, that much of what was truly profound and definitive about 20th century art has been for the most part jettisoned in the high art world by the consensoriat/institutional art model -in favor of an art world with Duchamp as today&#8217;s Adolphie Bouguereau  -buttressed up and sold via some very muddled understanding of certain french philosophers &#8211; all accompanied by visually and technically (at least in painting) a for the most part not particularly bold or engaging time&#8230;..</p>
<p>Its interesting how in furniture design, in architecture &#8211; the basic premises of modernism are being pushed ever further -are forward looking, with results that are tangibly beyond dispute &#8230;&#8230;go down to River North -the most interesting design you will come across is going to be at Luminare -not in some art gallery&#8230;&#8230;look at some of the buildings being done today..are the Richard Serra&#8217;s at Bilbao as successful as the building itself?..</p>
<p>-but you can&#8217;t blame this on painting, or sculpture -the simple fact is that the consensoriat is no  smarter when they condescend to acknowledge painting, than when they misconstrue Baudrillard- and unfortunately, they simply have more power -or simply have power in these disciplines and not in either design or architecture.</p>
<p>the footprint of what is institutional is almost certainly about resentment and revenge upon what is talented, what is visual and often what is exceptional, and is perhaps what is really in need of discussion. What is the impact of educational/institutional patronage of high art? What is the impact upon art?&#8230;&#8230;its all quite interesting&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: The Shark</title>
		<link>http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/comment-page-1/#comment-14092</link>
		<dc:creator>The Shark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 06:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://badatsports.com/blog/?p=104#comment-14092</guid>
		<description>The artworld:.....the artworld for me is right here in my studio where it belongs -to quote Lee Bontecou and more specifically, the canvas I happen to be camped out in front of -to quote me. Sure, there is creativity in many fields and I understand that Mr, Robbins is displaying some integrity in trying to offer up something of value to students -most, of whom will not go on to be artists.

Having said this, I don&#039;t take as fact that what is most interesting is in some nebulous middle ground between the artworld and entertainment- which probably has something to do with my defintion of what the artworld is.


I don&#039;t think that high art should neccessarily pander to anything or anyone. Usually, even when say, a particular painting is well known -it functions best on a one to one basis with each particular viewer -and is, a particular, aesthetic experience -not made, nor intended for the masses. But rather, for the unique individual in all of his or her concrete inimitability and apprehension. 

 These fragments I have shored against my ruins	 
Why then Ile fit you. Hieronymo&#039;s mad againe.

 What makes painting interesting -is that due to its simplicity of means -ie a person and a mark making implement, along with something to do it on, within this context -all is possible -which is why paintings have traditionally served as blueprints to various modes of expression, ideation, sensuality, a plastic invention involving the basic stuff and the esoteric stuff that makes us human.

That art schools have been involved in a revenge of the Philistines type mode attack on the aristocracy of high art is clearly in evidence when we look at for instance the pack of obsequious plutocrats ensconsed in educational institutions around Chicago -far more interested in power than with anything aesthetic-  that  since the beginning of the patronage of high art in the mid 20th century by institutionalized education, -it is clear that rather than creating focus as far from human habitation as imaginatively possible -with the idea that those who strive to understand their cultural context will get the fragments shored against their ruins --that the work will fit them commensurate with their ability to comprehend, that approaching great art should make us as individuals, greater, that art has to do with things like, clarification of conciousness, rather than this, we have an &#039;art&#039; whose concerns are more about addressing pop culture -being &#039;socially relevant&#039;..........considering the &#039;artworld in terms of social event.

here is a question: what, is the difference between art, and entertainment? Or, what, is the relationship of craft to entertainment -as opposed to say, technique of expression?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The artworld:&#8230;..the artworld for me is right here in my studio where it belongs -to quote Lee Bontecou and more specifically, the canvas I happen to be camped out in front of -to quote me. Sure, there is creativity in many fields and I understand that Mr, Robbins is displaying some integrity in trying to offer up something of value to students -most, of whom will not go on to be artists.</p>
<p>Having said this, I don&#8217;t take as fact that what is most interesting is in some nebulous middle ground between the artworld and entertainment- which probably has something to do with my defintion of what the artworld is.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that high art should neccessarily pander to anything or anyone. Usually, even when say, a particular painting is well known -it functions best on a one to one basis with each particular viewer -and is, a particular, aesthetic experience -not made, nor intended for the masses. But rather, for the unique individual in all of his or her concrete inimitability and apprehension. </p>
<p> These fragments I have shored against my ruins<br />
Why then Ile fit you. Hieronymo&#8217;s mad againe.</p>
<p> What makes painting interesting -is that due to its simplicity of means -ie a person and a mark making implement, along with something to do it on, within this context -all is possible -which is why paintings have traditionally served as blueprints to various modes of expression, ideation, sensuality, a plastic invention involving the basic stuff and the esoteric stuff that makes us human.</p>
<p>That art schools have been involved in a revenge of the Philistines type mode attack on the aristocracy of high art is clearly in evidence when we look at for instance the pack of obsequious plutocrats ensconsed in educational institutions around Chicago -far more interested in power than with anything aesthetic-  that  since the beginning of the patronage of high art in the mid 20th century by institutionalized education, -it is clear that rather than creating focus as far from human habitation as imaginatively possible -with the idea that those who strive to understand their cultural context will get the fragments shored against their ruins &#8211;that the work will fit them commensurate with their ability to comprehend, that approaching great art should make us as individuals, greater, that art has to do with things like, clarification of conciousness, rather than this, we have an &#8216;art&#8217; whose concerns are more about addressing pop culture -being &#8216;socially relevant&#8217;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.considering the &#8216;artworld in terms of social event.</p>
<p>here is a question: what, is the difference between art, and entertainment? Or, what, is the relationship of craft to entertainment -as opposed to say, technique of expression?</p>
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		<title>By: brad farwell</title>
		<link>http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/comment-page-1/#comment-13363</link>
		<dc:creator>brad farwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Apr 2007 20:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://badatsports.com/blog/?p=104#comment-13363</guid>
		<description>Hmmm.   Perhaps I am expressing myself poorly.  I simply reject the idea that what distinguishes art is the medium or mode of its production.  What I am referring to as &quot;High Art&quot; can exist within any mode of production.  Painting isn&#039;t Art just because it&#039;s painting, any more than TV is NotArt just because it&#039;s TV.  Perhaps our disagreement is one of definition; I think I&#039;m simply defining Art as intelligent creative work that can goad its maker or viewer into thought.  It doesn&#039;t have anything to do with medium (Cf Maus and Cathy, above).   This goad could come from in-depth analysis, from gut reaction, from historical appreciation, whatever.

I also admit a grand ignorance of the entertainment world (no TV, don&#039;t watch much in the way of movies, don&#039;t really listen to a lot of music) and would greatly appreciate some examples of this &quot;most interesting production&quot; that is going on out there.  (And I mean that in a sincere, rather than a snarky way.  Perhaps I have simply not seen it.)  

(as an aside, the most interesting and exuberantly creative things I&#039;ve seen in the last month have been both within and without the art world (the funhouse of Stingel at the MCA, and the super-rad work of the people at the graffiti research lab and the anti-advertising agency, who everyone probably knows about already, but who I just saw recently [check out, for example, http://graffitiresearchlab.com/?page_id=76#video or http://antiadvertisingagency.com/category/projects/light-criticism/ ])  Both are awesome, both are simultaneously exclusive/inclusive, both are really creative, both are popularly well-received.  Neither requires a specialized language to understand, though both are receptive to the application of rigorous analysis within an academic/art framework.)

I also disagree with the idea that the artworld was _ever_ &quot;the primary or most interesting place for people of ambitious intellect to produce and affect culture.&quot;  Artists are often at the edges of society, and intent on creating interesting and unusual or thought-provoking work.  This means that they will often explore a position which is not mainstream at the time, but which later becomes so.  History seems to point to past artworks as representative of cultural shifts, but I do not think this means that they alone were responsible for the cultural shift.  

Any cultural change requires a large and wide-ranging force arrayed behind it, and while art is sometimes a rallying-point, we should not confuse the banner with the brigade behind it.  Indeed, by the time the artist is part of any established art world, the cultural margin they were interested in has often become more mainstream... the &quot;art world&quot; itself being a fairly conservative construction.  

i do tend to blather on.  hope it&#039;s making some sort of sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm.   Perhaps I am expressing myself poorly.  I simply reject the idea that what distinguishes art is the medium or mode of its production.  What I am referring to as &#8220;High Art&#8221; can exist within any mode of production.  Painting isn&#8217;t Art just because it&#8217;s painting, any more than TV is NotArt just because it&#8217;s TV.  Perhaps our disagreement is one of definition; I think I&#8217;m simply defining Art as intelligent creative work that can goad its maker or viewer into thought.  It doesn&#8217;t have anything to do with medium (Cf Maus and Cathy, above).   This goad could come from in-depth analysis, from gut reaction, from historical appreciation, whatever.</p>
<p>I also admit a grand ignorance of the entertainment world (no TV, don&#8217;t watch much in the way of movies, don&#8217;t really listen to a lot of music) and would greatly appreciate some examples of this &#8220;most interesting production&#8221; that is going on out there.  (And I mean that in a sincere, rather than a snarky way.  Perhaps I have simply not seen it.)  </p>
<p>(as an aside, the most interesting and exuberantly creative things I&#8217;ve seen in the last month have been both within and without the art world (the funhouse of Stingel at the MCA, and the super-rad work of the people at the graffiti research lab and the anti-advertising agency, who everyone probably knows about already, but who I just saw recently [check out, for example, <a href="http://graffitiresearchlab.com/?page_id=76#video" rel="nofollow">http://graffitiresearchlab.com/?page_id=76#video</a> or <a href="http://antiadvertisingagency.com/category/projects/light-criticism/" rel="nofollow">http://antiadvertisingagency.com/category/projects/light-criticism/</a> ])  Both are awesome, both are simultaneously exclusive/inclusive, both are really creative, both are popularly well-received.  Neither requires a specialized language to understand, though both are receptive to the application of rigorous analysis within an academic/art framework.)</p>
<p>I also disagree with the idea that the artworld was _ever_ &#8220;the primary or most interesting place for people of ambitious intellect to produce and affect culture.&#8221;  Artists are often at the edges of society, and intent on creating interesting and unusual or thought-provoking work.  This means that they will often explore a position which is not mainstream at the time, but which later becomes so.  History seems to point to past artworks as representative of cultural shifts, but I do not think this means that they alone were responsible for the cultural shift.  </p>
<p>Any cultural change requires a large and wide-ranging force arrayed behind it, and while art is sometimes a rallying-point, we should not confuse the banner with the brigade behind it.  Indeed, by the time the artist is part of any established art world, the cultural margin they were interested in has often become more mainstream&#8230; the &#8220;art world&#8221; itself being a fairly conservative construction.  </p>
<p>i do tend to blather on.  hope it&#8217;s making some sort of sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Maura Thompson</title>
		<link>http://badatsports.com/2007/episode-82-david-robbins/comment-page-1/#comment-13025</link>
		<dc:creator>Maura Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Mar 2007 23:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://badatsports.com/blog/?p=104#comment-13025</guid>
		<description>I think Mr. Robbins&#039; thesis in the episode is far more radical than Mr. Farwell&#039;s interpretation.  I understand Mr. Robbins to be saying that the artworld is no longer the primary or most interesting place for people of ambitious intellect to produce and affect culture.  He advocates the creation of &quot;high entertainment&quot; which does away with the specialized language on which the artworld depends in favor of accessibility and ambition for the culture as a whole.  It&#039;s not as Mr. Farwell says that Art is still the primary place for expression, but artists have to incorporate other nontraditional modes of production in their artmaking; the fact is that the most interesting production is occurring in the middle ground between the artworld and the entertainment industry and will continue to be produced and contextualized there rather than in the world of &quot;high art.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Mr. Robbins&#8217; thesis in the episode is far more radical than Mr. Farwell&#8217;s interpretation.  I understand Mr. Robbins to be saying that the artworld is no longer the primary or most interesting place for people of ambitious intellect to produce and affect culture.  He advocates the creation of &#8220;high entertainment&#8221; which does away with the specialized language on which the artworld depends in favor of accessibility and ambition for the culture as a whole.  It&#8217;s not as Mr. Farwell says that Art is still the primary place for expression, but artists have to incorporate other nontraditional modes of production in their artmaking; the fact is that the most interesting production is occurring in the middle ground between the artworld and the entertainment industry and will continue to be produced and contextualized there rather than in the world of &#8220;high art.&#8221;</p>
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